“Embarrassment Isn’t shame” A Conversation with Women’s MMA pioneer Julie Kedzie

MMA fighter, writer and commentator Julie Kedzie on fighting in the early days, Gina Carano, and progressive causes in the sport..

Content warning for a discussion of the sexualization of fighters, and a combat sports-specific image with some blood in the piece.

In February 2013, Ronda Rousey and Liz Carmouche became the first women to compete in the UFC. The bout, which ended in the final seconds of the first round due to Rousey’s signature armbar, is now regarded as a turning point for women’s MMA. Once seen widely as novelty acts, female fighters had fought their way to the sport’s most prominent promotion. Thanks to her massive role in that process, Rousey became almost synonymous with women’s MMA worldwide.

Long before Rousey, though, there were women making history in their own right. Women like Julie Kedzie, who shared the EliteXC cage with Gina Carano in the first women’s MMA bout to air live on national TV and competed in two of MMA’s biggest stages — Strikeforce and the UFC — before ending a nine-year professional career in 2013.

Kedzie has since worked as a matchmaker and color commentator for all-female promotion Invicta FC, received an MFA in non-fiction writing, got a fellowship to teach and started working on a book. In her spare time, Kedzie uses her Twitter account — “locked briefly to fumigate a troll infestation,” her bio warns — to discuss some MMA, but also student debt, mental health, misogyny, trans rights and systemic racism.

Last week, after the 14th anniversary of the Carano fight — which coincided with Carano’s firing from Lucasfilm following offensive social media posts — I talked to Kedzie about her atypical career path, dealing with losses, her thoughts on women’s MMA and the sexualization of fighters, why she decided to become a voice for progressive causes in the sport, and Carano. Below is an edited version of our chat.

julie kedzie belt
Courtesy University of Iowa

You’re kind of a renaissance woman, in that being a professional MMA fighter is only one of the several things you’ve done. Could you walk us through your professional and academic path and where MMA fits in it?

I come from a family who’s very high on higher education. My sister has a double PhD, my mother has a PhD in neurobiology — which she actually got while she was raising us. So it kind of gave me a really good sense of strong women and the idea that you can back to school at any time and keep learning. I was pre-law when I was an undergraduate at Indiana University and I discovered MMA. I’d done martial arts my whole life, but I discovered MMA and fell in love with it and decided that I wanted to be a professional fighter instead of a lawyer. That’s what I pursued.

I had my first fight, I think, in 2004, and I had about a nine-year professional fight career with some pretty high-profile fights — including being one of the first female fights on network television and being in the first wave of women who were signed to fight in the UFC. After I retired from fighting, I had begun working on the side with an all-female fight promotion called Invicta FC as a color commentator and when I retired from fighting I took a job with that company as a matchmaker. It gave me the idea of the promotional side of things. It was not a job that I was suited for [laughs] — I don’t think I was bad at it, but I also think, because I came from fighting, I was a little bit too pro-fighter and I didn’t have enough business-savvy to maybe be able to have the hard conversations and really look at things, financially, for a larger picture.

But I made pretty good matches, I thought, despite what some of the critics say [laughs]. It was really cool, because I came into that company at a time when the UFC had put the first female division together, which was the (bantamweighs), and they had just taken our entire strawweight division of fighters, so I helped re-build both those divisions in the company. And that was pretty cool. I was around when (Bellator featherweight champion and former UFC champion) Cris Cyborg had some pretty great fights and eventually was picked up by the UFC. There were some real stars there that I got to witness kind of in their growth and progression as young fighters, and that was incredibly rewarding.

I still work with the company. But, in about 2016, I applied for graduate school. I decided to go back to school and pursue writing. I was living in Kansas, as a matchmaker, I left it for Iowa City. I went to the university of Iowa to pursue my MFA in non-fiction writing. After one semester of being in graduate school, I was planning on working and being a matchmaker while I did that, but basically one month after the semester I realized I could’t do that even though I was sharing my duties with another person — Kaitlin Young, who’s an extraordinary fighter and human being. So I left my position as matchmaker/co-matchmaker, but I continued working with the company as a color commentator.

That really made me happy, that I had that opportunity, because I love the Invicta company and I absolutely love analyzing fights. I love talking about fights and breaking them down. So while I was in graduate school, I was also commentating. After I received my MFA, I got a fellowship to teach there and work on my book — which I’m currently still in the process of working on, it’s long and hard writing a book [laughs] — and COVID hit during the spring semester of that fellowship.

So I came back to Kansas to be with family, because there were child care issues and I just wanted to be with my family at that time. And I have been unemployed ever since, I don’t know a graceful way t say that [laughs]. I’m writing, I’m looking for jobs. I still work as a commentator for Invicta, but, because it’s a small company, it’s not quite enough work for me to do full-time. So I’m trying to break through writer’s block, I’m applying for a lot of jobs and I’m basically yelling on the internet all the time. Although I did lock my account so I could possibly get hired [laughs].

Courtesy Scott Hirano/Invicta

You did mention you were part of big moments of women’s MMA, and just the other day there was the 14-year anniversary of your fight with Gina Carano — the first female MMA fight on live TV. You lost that one, yet it was one of those key moments that people still bring up, tag you on, etc. How do you process having been a part of such momentous occasions? Are you able to go back and be like ‘Oh, I’m proud of this, this is something I actually did’ or do you look at it with certain emotional distancing?

I think there is definitely some emotional distancing. I am proud of these things. I mean, I laugh at myself and my career a lot. But I’m also proud of the things I did — that’s why I can laugh at myself. I do get a little uncomfortable when people compliment me for it. I think I deserve those compliments, although I lost, because I fought, but basically I didn’t do anything that any other female fighter couldn’t do right there. Which is fight their heart out. So much of history is just settling on the right place at the right time, right? The right moment. And I was in a couple of those moments. In the history of female MMA in America. And I’m proud of that, I’m really excited that I had those.

I guess what I struggle with sometimes is (that) I don’t want to bank on those moments, either. I’ve seen other people — I guess I’ll just keep it specific to MMA, although I’ve seen it in many sports, where it’s just like “That was me, don’t you know who I am?”

And it’s just like, nobody cares because tomorrow there’s going to be another momentous, incredible thing that happened. In an interview the other day, somebody asked me what I thought the most important moment for women in MMA was, and that moment could still happen in the future, but I don’t think it was the fight with Carano. I think it was Ronda Rousey fighting Liz Carmouche in the UFC. Because that was just one of those things, that was just like the door is wide open.

As much as I’m proud of being in such a historic fight and being a part of it and really proving what women could do, it’s also not all who all of who I am. And when you’re going through the process of that in time, I wrote an article about it.

[Editor’s note: there’s more context here, which we go into later in the interview!]

I do remember when I was writing that article, first of all I was in graduate school, so I was trying all sorts of experimental things. (MMA writer) Ben Fowlkes was very kind to help me edit it, and [said] “You don’t really need this part, or this part.” “Oh yeah, I was doing that to impress the workshop, you’re right.” Again, I’m not a journalist, I’m like a weird artist [laughs]. But when I was writing through the process of that fight, you’re thinking about the moment-to-moment action.

You’re thinking about putting one foot in front of the other, you’re not thinking about history. If you think about that in a fight, then the pressure is on something bigger than you, and sometimes you can’t control. I was thinking “My fucking hair is in my face,” and “Why are these rounds so short, they told us we were fighting five-minute rounds.” That’s what I’m thinking.

I had a splinter in my foot during that fight, I’m thinking “Ouch, I can’t put my right heel on the ground.” And “She hits so hard” and “Now I don’t have contact lenses on,” you know?

You were there for such a pivotal time for women’s MMA. Looking back to where it was to where it is now, what’s one thing that makes you optimistic or happy about the way the status of women’s MMA, and do you have something that you think maybe we should have been further along at this point, like one aspect — though I’m sure that are many — that you expect to see improve?

What makes me really happy and really proud is that people rise to the occasion. The talent level is so much higher, and the women are so much more competitive. They’re just better athletes than we were then. They’re more poised, they’re learning how to conduct themselves as professional athletes. I had to be kind of trained to do that and, honestly, I was fake that way [laughs]. So it wasn’t a great way for me to be. One thing that could have been improved was the atmosphere for women at gyms, the promotions, everything like that.

Because it’s all trickled down from the top. You get the guy who’s the head of the biggest promotion in the world saying women can’t fight, you get exposed all the time to people saying women can’t fight. You get exposed on the forums — now they’re evil [laughs], but before it was like the only place sometimes you could find fights, was to go on the underground forum, Sherdog forums, and say “I want this, I want that” and in the process you have to talk about the size of your tits.

It was just like, listening to them go on about these top 10 lists of “Who’s the hottest one.” That kind of thing. If there was a way that we could have been even more connected, and had stronger male allies. And, also, ourselves, been more allies to each other. I think we were — we were a good community. But we could have fought harder for each other, I think, in the beginning. I think it would have helped. It would have been great.

But we could have fought harder for each other, I think, in the beginning. I think it would have helped. It would have been great.

So you think that could have made a difference today, if those steps had been taken?

I think maybe that’s just what people are realizing now, that they understand now. But I also think not just women fighters. I think we could have been stronger and better allies to women in media. There was just so much more — everybody could have done better. It’s hard to be specific about that, exactly, except I always come back to myself and the things that I look at with regard to my past and a lot of that is involved in participating in slut-shaming or this or that.

And it’s just like, for some women, selling themselves sexually as fighters was how they knew they were going to get attention and sponsorship and stuff like that and for me I was like, “No [grunts].” I get that perspective now, I understand why they had to do that, and a lot of them made a hell of a lot more money than me doing it.

So, had I not carried the prejudices that I had, or the conditioning that I had from other sources, and just respected women fighting as women fighting. I think that I could have contributed more in that sense.

julie kedzie
Courtesy Invicta/Dave Mandel

Looking at it today, though. Obviously a lot has changed, but there’s a lot that hasn’t changed that much. Looking at women’s MMA now and those matters that you just mentioned, are you optimistic? Do you like where we’re at, generally?

I’m never satisfied. I think that there is still too much pressure on sexuality in fighting. I understand people like to put these sort of those pseudo-psychological, “It’s the primal sense of sex and fighting, and sex sells.”

And, you know, fighting sells. Good fighting sells. I don’t want people to feel like they have to abandon any sense of femininity when they’re fighting, (but) I think that fighting is fighting. It’s not a gender. Or it’s not a sexuality. It’s fighting. It’s violence, and those things are very intertwined in our culture, sexuality and violence. They’re very intertwined, and it gets hard to make statements about them that I’m not going to look back on, read something, and be like “Well, I was completely wrong.”

But what I’m feeling right now is I don’t think women should feel pressured to be sexualized. And I do think there’s a pressure there in MMA. If they take pleasure in it, and they enjoy it, and that’s what they want, that’s fine and great.

But, also, that’s not fighting. That’s promotion. And promoters should be the promoters. They should be promoting you. If women feel like they need to sell themselves with sexy pictures and stuff like that to get sponsorship and stuff and get more attention and then they’ll get more fights — that’s a carryover from the old days. Promoters should promote you.

One of the things I love about Invicta FC, one of the things (Invicta FC president Shannon Knapp) voices, it’s not about pretty girls fighting. It’s about fighters fighting. Women fighting. And I love that.

That doesn’t mean pretty girls can’t fight, or shouldn’t fight, or shouldn’t feel pretty. It’s just — at the end of the day, let your face get smashed in. And be proud of it. I mean, don’t, hopefully keep your hands up [laughs], but don’t shy away from that. I didn’t see the Bare Knuckle fight with (former UFC fighter) Paige VanZant, but I know that she’s held as kind of this sexual icon in women’s combat, because she’s been promoted that way, and she’s very beautiful, etc. But good for her for going into something that causes so much damage. Faces do heal [laughs].

Recently, ESPN sports personality Stephen A. Smith made some controversial remarks about his thoughts on women fighting. It was a rant that went a few places, but at one point he said that “when I think about pugilistic sports, I don’t like to see women involved in that at all.” A lot of people took the ‘Ignore him, that’s just what he does’ route, but you chose to position yourself publicly and tag ESPN on a tweet. Why did you decide to do that? What do you think is really the harm of comments like Smith’s?

First of all, his position is to be a sports personality or analyst or whatever. So whatever the sport, he should be treating the athletes in that sport like athletes. The women’s divisions, they’re divisions of fighting. I know some people hate the expression “WMMA” or “female MMA,” and I get that, it is just MMA. But it’s also a division, because there are 125-pound males, too. I think specificity and context are important, because then you know which divisions you’re talking about.

But, in particular, Stephen Smith’s kind of whole thing like, ‘I’d never legislate against it’ or I’d never want it not to happen, I just can’t watch it, we’re not supposed to hit women.’ Nobody was talking about women fighting men. That was just something he inserted in there to imply that this is some sort of violence against women, as opposed to women participating in voluntary violence. It’s a sport. I got a lot of comments like “What if he saw domestic abuse, so that is triggering him and you’re being insensitive.” I’m just like, he’s a fucking sports analyst. No, you don’t get to do that.

I’m not calling for him to be fired. I’m not renewing my ESPN thing, but like I’m not calling for him to lose this job. I’m calling for him to have a little bit of a reckoning. If you’re in a swimming pool, and you almost drown, but then, later on, it’s your job to talk about sports in general and you have to cover swimming, you don’t say ‘I can’t cover the swimming, it triggers me, it scares me.’ At least you don’t say it publicly, or about one division of the swimming.

I get that MMA is violent, and violence has so many dimensions to it, so many levels to it. And people’s cultural unfamiliarity with women participating in violence is tough. It’s just tough. It’s happening. It’s there. It’s a sport. Deal with it. And deal with it professionally. Because, at the end of the day, whatever he was saying about, ‘Oh, I wouldn’t want to (put it down), I just can’t get behind it.’ It’s just like — shut up, then. You did just put it down. Because you didn’t have to do that disclaimer. You didn’t have to put that in there.

It’s so funny because I still remember getting into an argument online years and years ago, when (former UFC welterweight champion Georges St-Pierre) was my teammate, and he said something like he didn’t like watching women fights.

And I was like, “Well, that’s his opinion.” At the time I thought he was wrong, but I also had this, ‘I’ve got to defend my teammate at all costs’ (mentality). So it’s like, great, have your opinion about stuff, but if it’s your job to talk about sports, then treat every fucking athlete like an athlete. Not like some exotic variety of athlete. That’s an athlete that’s on your programming. Treat them like you treat other athletes. Which I guess in MMA, he treats all of them like shit, but you know [laughs]. He was calling out women in particular.

treat every fucking athlete like an athlete

You had losses in your MMA career and we often see the trolls and people going after that online. Obviously, as a competitor, I’m sure at the time you were hurt and wanted to win, but you’re also very open and candid about them now. All those years later, how do losses sit with you?

Sometimes, they’re embarrassing. But embarrassment is a thing that — what do you do with it? The thing you can’t do is conflate embarrassment and shame. I am somebody who has been pretty open about my mental health struggles. I’ve dealt with depression, I’ve dealt with anxiety and ADHD and all sorts of things, but what I have learned through really good therapy is that embarrassment isn’t shame.

Embarrassment is “Wow, OK, I’m a human being. And I had a human being blunder. And I was a human being in a competitive space and I got a human being blunder. I messed up. The other person was better, or perhaps I just wasn’t as good as I could have been that day. And I’m alive. I’m OK. It has not caused the world to crumble.”

It’s a good lesson to learn. I admire Ronda Rousey’s mother a lot, and I remember listening to her talk about how she trained Ronda and she had this mentality of win or die, or she got upset, and I was just like “That probably would have helped me tremendously in my career. But I don’t think it would have helped me as a person.” I don’t think that would have suited my personality, because of my tendency to go into that shame spiral. So that’s where (I got), reconciling that embarrassment isn’t shame. You lose in front of 2,000 people, but the sun’s going to shine the next day. It might be shining on your face, a little bruised, but it’s still shining.

MMA is not known for being a progressive space. I personally struggle to gauge how much “less progressive” it is than other spaces and other sports, but it is not known for that. And you’re known for being — and I know this is kind of a bad word now, but — “woke,” articulating those opinions publicly and ultimately being targeted for them. So where does that come from? Was it something that you grew up with it? Did the fact that the MMA community didn’t seem to hold generally those values influence that? What drives you to have that presence online, even when it can be costly at times for your mental health?

I do come from a family with very educated women. And they teach me. But another thing, when I was growing up with all the respect in Tae Kwon Do and everything like that, I was mouthy. I was impulsive, but I didn’t feel like I could use my voice very much. Twitter kind of like, appeared midway through my (MMA) career, but I also didn’t speak out that much because I was learning how to have the fighter “canned answers” and I was also representing other people, who were very emphatic about what I should be doing in their name and representing in their name. And so I was a little bit edited, self-edited.

And then when I was the matchmaker for Invicta, some of my views were definitely coming through, especially [that] I was very pro-feminist. When I was a matchmaker for Invicta, this is when I kind of went nuts, understanding I have a platform and I don’t have to represent my employer’s views anymore from Albuquerque. But I did have to represent Invicta’s views. Which is why I just basically retweeted jokes all the time and comedians all the time. Because I didn’t want to get online and start screaming at people. With a couple of (exceptions)… but it was ‘I’m an employee of this company. I see how other professional matchmakers interact.’ I stopped giving interviews.

when I was the matchmaker for Invicta, some of my views were definitely coming through, especially [that] I was very pro-feminist.

But when I left, my maybe “wokeness” is interspersed with the time of leaving the position where I was a full-time employee of the company and representing them, and also going into graduate school with a bunch of people who were Ivy Leaguers, people working in media companies and stuff like that, who were just like ‘your leanings are so arcane. You’re kind of fascist, you’re kind of this.’

I thought I was this great progressive and then having to fight my instincts to be totally defensive. “No, I’m not racist,” which is basically what everybody does when they’re confronted with their complicity in these systems. Actually, I’ll say white people. White people do this. I’m going to call out white people. “I’m not racist. You can’t call me that.” I had to go through my own process of that, and then all of a sudden be “Why am I yelling and not listening?” It feels counterintuitive when you look at my Twitter account, because I’m always yelling, but I actually am listening too [laughs].

And I think one of the reasons that I got so loud and so emphatically progressive on my account was that I realized how many good people are lying to themselves and reinforcing systems that are hurting other people. And they just don’t know. And I was just like, “Man, I have a lot of time to make up for. I have a lot of my past feelings to make up for here.’

And silence is complicity. I want to be empathetic. I want to believe in people that I’ve loved and I’ve cared about, but I see them upholding systems that cause — I see the harm that they’re causing. I see the manipulations that are happening, specifically under the past administration.

Also, I was in school for creative nonfiction, which is not journalism, it is essentially about how you craft your voice, how you figure out the voice and how you represent the story and how many different versions of it there are. And I taught rhetoric for two years and it’s just like, “Oh my God, this is a time when people are taking rhetoric as fact.” I just think that, if I have to have a narrative out in the world, mine’s going to be goddamn trying to not be a racist shit-head. Just speaking up. Because I do speak only for myself now.

As an outsider, it seemed to me like you were put in an awkward position when the Gina Carano thing happened. There was this historic event that you both shared, your names are intertwined. You shared something that other people didn’t and, at the end of the day, it’s a human person. I don’t even know if it’s a fair question to ask, but after these couple of days, how did you feel when this all down?

I’m very happy to talk about it, because I didn’t want to make it about me, but my image kept coming up, next to her, holding her hand. Here’s the thing: I knew Gina in that fight and she was extraordinary. She left a note under my door and it was kind and — I might get shit for this, too, but — I think she’s a good woman. However, good people can be manipulated. Good people could be turned. Something’s going on there, and people are making her a martyr for conservatives when that’s not what this issue is about at all.

I don’t know Disney’s hiring practices.

I don’t even watch The Mandalorian — which, again, I’m going to alienate the world by saying that, I just haven’t gotten into it yet. [laughs]. But I had unfollowed her on social media previously — with great pain, because, again, when I knew her, in my personal interactions with her, she’d come to the gym to train and I fell in love with her. Not romantically, but, more like, there’s a woman in the gym who has been through some stuff that I understand, and she understands some stuff I’ve been through, and we’re both struggling with certain things in our lives.

When she left the gym, it broke my heart. The circumstances of that I don’t need to talk about, it was so long ago, but I just remember feeling a kinship, feeling a closeness to her. Feeling very defensive of her when people critiqued her.

But I’m very angry about the politics in our country, which is very clear to my Twitter. I have studied fascism a little bit, and the way authoritarianism works, and we were in a really bad fucking spot. So people allied with that who I cared about, I tended to try to mute, so that I could try to remember good things about them and not project my anger.

I did unfollow her on social media because, previously, I was upset about her comments that were transphobic. But, at the same time, I’m thinking I’m sure I’ve had those in my past, all you can do is learn.  And I’m sorry to the trans community if me saying that is letting her off the hook, that’s not what I intend to do, I just had to learn and I was hoping she would learn, too.

Also, it’s not my business if she learns or not. But, when you have a personal connection with somebody, or a past personal connection with somebody, you’re cheering for them to progress into the best person they can be.

I just had to learn and I was hoping she would learn, too

But I didn’t follow her when I saw a meme that was very anti-semitic, and I don’t know if she knew it was anti-semitic, but it was just kind of like, that was it for me. It was like, I can’t see my friend posting this. I don’t see them as a friend anymore, and I can’t see this. I just can’t. So I didn’t actually see what she posted that got her fired or whatever. I had to read about it.

Somebody sent it to me, and I was like, “OK, to me his is coming across as somebody thinks they’re making a really smart philosophical connection, but they’re actually being insanely insensitive and not understanding at all the magnitude of the comparison that’s being made here.” So, what I wanted to do first was to have my MMA Junkie story about our fight pulled, because I was just — this is too much.

You wanted it pulled because you didn’t want the association?

You know what, I look back and I think it was pretty cowardly of me. Because I have that association; you can’t not have that association. I think it was because I spoke of her with such high praise in that. But the truth is she deserved high praise at that time. The person she was, who I interacted with then, deserved high praise. That person was a good person.

And whether or not she’s still that person, I don’t know. But I do know that (last week’s) events were too much for me. It’s a comparison, it’s a thing that, had I been called on that, or had somebody who wasn’t super entrenched in whatever they’re entrenched in, and that form of defensiveness, (to say) “This is fucking offensive, this is horrible,” I’d immediately apologize and try to do right and try to learn from it.

people kept posting that picture of us holding hands, and I didn’t want to dwell on that fight. I didn’t want to dwell on that moment. I wanted to dwell on the fact that a great deal of harm had just been caused by her words.

I thought it was awful, in other words. But, also, I didn’t have the piece pulled — which nobody was reading anyway, it was written like years ago — but instead people kept posting that picture of us holding hands, and I didn’t want to dwell on that fight. I didn’t want to dwell on that moment. I wanted to dwell on the fact that a great deal of harm had just been caused by her words. And, so, I posted a link to the the Auschwitz Memorial Twitter account. I just asked that other people follow it and other people please provide links.

I just saw an article today saying that her being fired was on par with the blacklist and McCarthyism and, I’m not sure, I don’t remember any Congressional hearings happening about her tweets. So I’m not sure that’s exactly the comparison that could be made right now.

But, understand, I don’t want anybody that I know to lose their jobs, or be hurt, or anything. Even Stephen A. Smith, I don’t think I called for him to be fired. I want people to, when they fuck up, learn and grow and make up for it. And I don’t know if you can make up for trivializing the Holocaust. I don’t know that she knew she was trivializing the Holocaust. But she was. And, again, I think that she was probably trying to make some point about — I don’t even know what point she was trying to make, I haven’t talked to her, I don’t know. But it was in bad taste and it was wrong.

I didn’t want to contribute to the “fire” hashtag. I don’t like any of that. I don’t disrespect people who have that opinion; I think that a lot of people have been hurt and if that’s the opinion that they have and that’s what they want to promote, then they should do that. But all I can do is double down on emphasizing “Oh my God, get educated, man.” Not educated through YouTube videos that you get because some anti-vax site has found your algorithm. I mean actually educate.

The thing about what happened in the Holocaust, it was dehumanization. Nobody is dehumanizing her. Nobody is saying, that I’ve seen, that I’ve experienced in this, nobody is dehumanizing Republicans. There’s anger, and there’s rhetoric, and there’s all sorts of things about what has happened and the consequences of the Trump administration and stuff like that. But Republicans still have a very strong voice. Nobody’s voice is being taken away. Except for Trump off of Twitter and that’s because he could have started wars. The what about-ism that happens is so ingrained, and it’s so entrenched.

People are so intent on being right, they’re doing everything in their power to say “There’s a right one, you’re the wrong one,” but they’re not thinking “What am I saying or doing right now that’s causing harm?” And I’ve fallen to that myself, but it was wrong. And I know I should have some sort of blistering opinion about Disney firing her or whatever, but I don’t have an opinion about that.

I don’t know anything about Disney. That’s a company that has his own struggles with anti-semitism and stuff. I don’t know the actors on that show.

Because, again, the whataboutism, “Oh this guy said this, this guy said that.” Well, that’s not the thing being addressed right now. My picture was next to a person, that’s a person that’s cared about and loved, who said something that trivialized mass murder.

And… I don’t know man. It was just wrong. I haven’t talked to her. I don’t think it’s my place to talk to her, I don’t think she wants to talk to me. I don’t think I’m the person to do the educating right there, but what I could do and what I did try to do was say “Here’re resources for education for people. People, please feel free to post other ways to be educated.”